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 p-a-w-e-l
USER: P-A-W-E-L
 Godlike!
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 Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 16:31 Post subject: I4g streaming idea - epic or shit?
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Hello. I was wondering, how would it turn out if someone would stream what is happening on i4games servers. The person who would commentate on someone's play, he can also try caping some maps, specing someone who is trying to cap some R10, or even specing players on BT Rush server. Just for fun, and he doesn't have to sit a lot with streaming, just an ocassional stream for hour or so. The streamer could also watch and take commentary on recent news, like new records or w/e. Just for fun. He could post link once and say when he is streaming or when is he going to do it on forum. Viewers can watch what is happening around if they don't want to launch their UT and join server, they see what's going on right on stream screen. I don't see any disadvantages of this " modern " idea besides that some rushers might stop rush coz of that, because they want to keep their runs for them only ( like fierds vs elite, you know what I mean  ).
Let me know what do you think about it, this is only loose suggestion. The more opinion we will receive there, the more we can think about it.
I don't think it's a stupid idea so why don't try it some day? 
FEEL FREE TO EXPRESS YOURSELF! 
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 macz^
USER: WANDU
Rampage
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 17:08 Post subject: |
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You can't really stream UT with it been either too dark or too bright in the stream. Just one of those games that looks terrible and makes the game look bad. Good idea but it won't work, I only like to watch 720 / 1080 streams. And to stream UT at that is not really possible unless you installed high res textures and tweaked it to hell then just maybe it would look a little good.
Unless you could make the quality look like it does in this movie,
Incarnation MQ X264 and that's Medium Quality. Link Below  Enjoy.
http://www.fileplay.net/file/7062/incarnation-mq-x264
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frytki i ser pawel lol bon umiera w szlam haha
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p-a-w-e-l
USER: P-A-W-E-L
Godlike!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 17:30 Post subject: |
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rotfl wandu.
about quality - let's bet it will be with a high standards. Look at supa's streams for example.
http://www.twitch.tv/fierd/c/2363850
Quality like this should be enough, no?
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macz^
USER: WANDU
Rampage
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| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 18:26 Post subject: |
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It appears extremely fuzzy for me, macro blocking because the bit rate is not high enough. Higher the bit rate too like 2500 or 3000 and use a buffer size of 3500 and it would be much more clear and crisp and less macro blocking.
And get some good colour settings.
If anyone is interested i use a program called Open Broadcaster.
Its free no limits, restrictions. And is much better than Xsplit, FFsplit.
and is much less intensive on the processor and system in general.
http://obsproject.com/
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 fierd_1
USER: 5UPA
Rampage
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 00:01 Post subject: |
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| Wandu wrote: | It appears extremely fuzzy for me, macro blocking because the bit rate is not high enough. Higher the bit rate too like 2500 or 3000 and use a buffer size of 3500 and it would be much more clear and crisp and less macro blocking.
And get some good colour settings.
If anyone is interested i use a program called Open Broadcaster.
Its free no limits, restrictions. And is much better than Xsplit, FFsplit.
and is much less intensive on the processor and system in general.
http://obsproject.com/ |
That's because you're a halfwit moron.
Thanks for recommending Open Broadcaster, that brand new piece of software that people haven't been using for a year now. I'll give you a hint, we all use Open Broadcaster - however because of the Twitch architecture internally it is impossible to get perfect streams for UT (well, not impossible - just hard; but for the sake of this conversation we'll just say impossible).
My PC/network is more than capable of broadcasting 720p/60fps - however if you have ever used Twitch before in the past, which it doesn't sound like you have, for regular non-partner users they provide you the stream in only the resolution that you capture/send signal out with whatever software you're using.
That is, if you're capturing and set your stream to 720p and you're not a partner, your whole viewer-base is forced to watch in 720. Which is all dandy and stuff, except for fact lets say 30% people have terrible internet connections. So, I have to choose to provide a good balance between bitrate & quality & resolution.
In addition to that, Twitch also provides x bandwidth to games such as League of Legends, and then something like .1x to games such as Unreal Tournament.
So unless someone in this community becomes a Twitch partner (which I have applied for, unsuccessful - requirements being average 400 viewer base + regular streams), which would provide you with slightly more bandwidth plus Twitch will internally compress your stream into lower resolutions/bitrates to suit everyone's internets then you will be stuck with this.
I am more than happy to put up a stream at 8000 bitrate at 1080p but that will just leave 1 percentile of the viewerbase. DUCY?
| p-a-w-e-l wrote: |
FEEL FREE TO EXPRESS YOURSELF! |
Oh, and your idea is stupid. Sorry but no one wants to watch people trying to caps maps, it's boring and unless there's an influx of new maps every day then it'll be extremely boring to watch. BT is extremely excruciatingly boring to watch.
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 fierd_4
USER: OIC-CHAOS
Dominating
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| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:23 Post subject: |
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| 5upa wrote: |
Sorry but no one wants to watch people trying to caps maps, it's boring and unless there's an influx of new maps every day then it'll be extremely boring to watch. BT is extremely excruciatingly boring to watch. |
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 JensonFTW
USER: LIGHTNING
Unstoppable
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:06 Post subject: |
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I dunno, ok I agree with all of Supa's points. But surely these streams could somehow encourage people to get a copy of UT and keep Bunnytrack alive? You'd need to come up with a more innovative concept though, but with the right format/idea surely it would be great?
BT should never die, there is no other game or platform developed afaik that can rival it's abilities at what it does.
Going a little OT but, why did UT/BT decline over the years? Not because it can't compete with new games, but because the original crowd of adherents will obviously after 3/5/10 years decide to spend their time doing something different.
BUT where is the new generation of players to perpetuate its popularity? They either have never heard of UT99 or just dismiss it because it's old! And maybe some web streams could in a small way help to change that?
[Oh and HEYYY CHAOS ]
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fierd_1
USER: 5UPA
Rampage
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:22 Post subject: |
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| Lightning wrote: | I dunno, ok I agree with all of Supa's points. But surely these streams could somehow encourage people to get a copy of UT and keep Bunnytrack alive? You'd need to come up with a more innovative concept though, but with the right format/idea surely it would be great?
BT should never die, there is no other game or platform developed afaik that can rival it's abilities at what it does.
Going a little OT but, why did UT/BT decline over the years? Not because it can't compete with new games, but because the original crowd of adherents will obviously after 3/5/10 years decide to spend their time doing something different.
BUT where is the new generation of players to perpetuate its popularity? They either have never heard of UT99 or just dismiss it because it's old! And maybe some web streams could in a small way help to change that?
[Oh and HEYYY CHAOS ] |
Theoretically it's possible - but you're never going to achieve that by streaming BT1. As I said, BT is excruciatingly boring to watch, so if you stream that no one will want to watch. To be completely honest, the best chance we had of getting 'new players' was our streaming of the 1v1 Open Cup during the spring. That was a competitive 1v1 format which people definitely like to see. We all added in our witty/funny/insightful commentary which really gave BT it's 'best chance' of becoming 'well known'.
Unfortunately there are just so many mechanics in BT I guess that makes it tough to entice new players. Look at all the things you have to learn how to do when you start this game. Aim being the first thing, followed by jumping, dodging (which absolutely looks batshit retarded to people who have never played the game), bouncing, walk jumping etc etc.
You're right, there is no other game developed which can rival it, which is sad and cool at the same time. Cool in the fact that it's such a 'unique' idea and well made especially for it's time. However sad because it's definitely an idea which has a lot of potential and other game developers are missing a lot of potential of putting something similiar in their games, the only thing similiar to it was Defrag for Q3A. The problem with UT BT is a few things:
a) The community;
To the average BT player, everyone is pretty oblivious to the community, but if you're in the loop with everything, you realize how nice the community is. But not really, the rushing community here on i4G, plus the people that play the cups. Just take a look in the past 3 cups on Clanbase and you will see on each at least 1x a 50+ post thread full of flaming at each other. Not really enticing.
b) The bugs/abusive things/variables
This is just one of those games that have *so* many variables happening in every scenario, that it's mostly just random. Honestly, UT Physics could be taught in schools it's that complex and retarded. Things like bouncing, not being able to bounce if you have VSync off, having to change renderers in order to give improved mouse feedback and being able to bounce, netspeed influencing bouncers, tickrate influencing bouncers, mappers who can't map according to that etc etc. Plus a lot of people starting up the game have a lot of issues getting the game running. The game was developed in 1998 and the advancement in PC's we have had since then in tenfold, UT doesn't run well on so many things from stock - and you have to tweak a lot of things to get it running smoothly. From downloading the game, to installing the 436 NoDelta patch, to getting enhanced OGL/D3D renderers, to getting dual core fixes, to tweaking your UT.ini's renderer config with no easy options (i.e, people don't know that the "SwapInterval" parameter is essentially VSync. If you're new you don't understand these things, you just expect to install the game, go into a server and start playing.
I'm sure there's a few other reasons that I'm missing but I just woke up so they're not coming to me right now.
I've tried to entice new players to come all the time in my streams, which I tactically named on Twitch, promoted as much as I could, tried to get as many new players onto #BT to start pugging and talking with all the BT community, and essentially while the channel grew exponentially from where it began, all the people that joined were already part of the community. I guess it's not that interesting to watch. And these are cup games, let alone BT1. The only thing remotely interesting to stream would be BT3 but I know that 95% of the community has the attention span of about 5 minutes when it comes to speccing. You'll have someone like Dylan rushing, someone will come in, spec for 5 mins and get bored and leave. Because you get majority of the time suiciding and spawn room. Plus I doubt either of the two major rushing 'clans' would want their runs to be streamed .. (not that they need to be streamed for them to find them out).
Why did BT decline? I would say because the generation of players who started playing ever since the beginning have dropped off. Anyone who started playing in 99 is most likely gone, I started in 2000/2001 and the only reason I'm probably still here is because I started when I was 8 years old, now nearly 20 which is like a pensioner in BT terms. You see most of the active rushers are between 17-22 years old, and most of those picked up the game when they were really young and continued playing.
Epic Games just hasn't done enough to promote their old game. They should've followed in the footsteps of iD Software who created Quake 3. Q3 was just as popular as UT was and lasted for that time, however come 2009, they decided to revitalise their popular franchise by re-releasing the same game, however online and free-to-play (QuakeLive). And even though the game is dying slowly aswell, it revitalized it and gave it competitive play for a few extra years. Epic just focused on UT2k4, UT3 and flopped on both. So all you have left is the community who has been here for 3+ years. Who are all slowly quitting because of the really nice community.
I don't think streaming the game is ever going to get new people into the community for all the reasons above. The death of the game (for BT anyway) is coming and will happen in the next year or so IMO. There will be less players, less new maps, less incentive to play and yep..
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p-a-w-e-l
USER: P-A-W-E-L
Godlike!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 13:07 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | To be completely honest, the best chance we had of getting 'new players' was our streaming of the 1v1 Open Cup during the spring |
Indeed it was.
| Quote: | | To the average BT player, everyone is pretty oblivious to the community, but if you're in the loop with everything, you realize how nice the community is. But not really, the rushing community here on i4G, plus the people that play the cups. Just take a look in the past 3 cups on Clanbase and you will see on each at least 1x a 50+ post thread full of flaming at each other. Not really enticing. |
Yep and it is sad thing.
| Quote: | | Honestly, UT Physics could be taught in schools it's that complex and retarded. Things like bouncing, not being able to bounce if you have VSync off, having to change renderers in order to give improved mouse feedback and being able to bounce, netspeed influencing bouncers, tickrate influencing bouncers, mappers who can't map according to that |
It is hard piece of bread. Same with luckdodges, jumps taken to the limit, but yeah, mainly with bouncing and bouncers.
But I disagree at @ mappers who can't map due to that. UT can work diffrently for everyone. It is kinda random if , for example in my BT+Cba usually you get cratered on main bouncer, if you fall on it, because you can use it once only. In fact, players sometimes ( or rarely ) are able to pass it for their second time, that's why asterix holds record on this. IT ISN'T that I can't repair, because it depends from player's PCs, internets, netspeeds, tickrates and much more. Unfixable thing to balance map for everyone's tools. Roel and others will agree I think.
| Quote: | | The only thing remotely interesting to stream would be BT3 but I know that 95% of the community has the attention span of about 5 minutes when it comes to speccing. You'll have someone like Dylan rushing, someone will come in, spec for 5 mins and get bored and leave. Because you get majority of the time suiciding and spawn room. Plus I doubt either of the two major rushing 'clans' would want their runs to be streamed .. (not that they need to be streamed for them to find them out). |
That's what I meant. It can also discourage beginners, they can think " screw it, dying all the time and doing things all over ".
| Quote: |
I don't think streaming the game is ever going to get new people into the community for all the reasons above. The death of the game (for BT anyway) is coming and will happen in the next year or so IMO. There will be less players, less new maps, less incentive to play and yep.. |
It's true and I think we just need to get into it. 
@ less new maps - Right. I remember whilst I've created post of " best map in 2010 " or " best map in 2011 " and there were plenty of them. Over 1 houndrad afaik in both years. Currently this number is a lot smaller unfortunately....
Anyway, unless to encouraging ppl, I was wondering what about doing it for a current community, but now I don't see sense of it, because of the reasons above.
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fierd_1
USER: 5UPA
Rampage
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 13:35 Post subject: |
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| p-a-w-e-l wrote: |
It is hard piece of bread. Same with luckdodges, jumps taken to the limit, but yeah, mainly with bouncing and bouncers.
But I disagree at @ mappers who can't map due to that. UT can work diffrently for everyone. It is kinda random if , for example in my BT+Cba usually you get cratered on main bouncer, if you fall on it, because you can use it once only. In fact, players sometimes ( or rarely ) are able to pass it for their second time, that's why asterix holds record on this. IT ISN'T that I can't repair, because it depends from player's PCs, internets, netspeeds, tickrates and much more. Unfixable thing to balance map for everyone's tools. Roel and others will agree I think.
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I can't really comment on Cba as I haven't played it, so no idea what you're talking about regarding that.
But if you say it's hard to cater for players using bouncers or falls or whatever, then you should avoid using those obstacles when creating your map. I'll use WalkJump as an example since I rushed that a few weeks back. Second room you're forced to do a small fall onto a ramp, bounce, hit the bouncer and then do another normal bounce with boots to get across (I'm sure you don't have to do the first bounce if you aren't going for the rec). But when you're playing like I am with VSync on, then hitting the normal bounce after the bounce pad is completely random. You're basically hoping that your game 'ticks' and refreshes at that point to register the bounce, otherwise you just do a normal boot jump because your game misses the timing. Those types of obstacles should just be avoided in maps. And the room after it as well, bouncing after the bounce pads. About 15% of the time bouncing after hitting the bouncer you don't bounce far enough to get to the next hole, it's irritating.
And this is what makes it hard for new players to play the game. I've been playing for a decade+ and I still don't understand how half the physics in this game work. Let alone someone who hasn't even touched the game in their life.
And I wish mappers would spend more time on their maps to produce quality over quantity. I'm not specifically talking about you Pawel, because you put the time and effort in to make your maps look really nice even though I hate some of the obstacles. There has been an influx of maps in the last month, and while I have loved some of them (Amun for example) - there are other mappers who are just releasing 3 maps a week which are like 2/10 quality, rather than releasing a map every 2 weeks and making it a 8 or 9/10 quality.
One of the things to get a lot of the older or non-active players back is to make really decent maps. Just take a look at the i4Games traffic whenever a new map comes out. The server will hit 11/12 people all playing the new map - but whether they continue playing is up to if the map is any good.
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p-a-w-e-l
USER: P-A-W-E-L
Godlike!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 13:51 Post subject: |
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So avoiding " random obstacles " is hard, but ok.
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JensonFTW
USER: LIGHTNING
Unstoppable
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 16:17 Post subject: |
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Interesting discussion. I always wondered what was the luck element of scroll[bounce]jumping. So from reading your comments Supa I derived this:
If VSync = OFF then its impossible to do a bounce jump. But if VSync is ON it is possible but pseudo-random based on the on the games tickrate? Is that correct?
I remember a while ago here on LavaFactory there were players who developed the bounce to give consistency (SlideJump map is another example), how did they achieve this? Does increasing the Tickrate make a difference or was it just a better mouse wheel? At best I could managed about 3 consecutive bounces then it would return to a normal jump I know there are probably loads of variables to answer but there must have been one or two notable things these players did to achieve a regular bounce...
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p-a-w-e-l
USER: P-A-W-E-L
Godlike!
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p-a-w-e-l
USER: P-A-W-E-L
Godlike!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 19:52 Post subject: |
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By the way, this isn't just for a few persons post. What's up with opinions, Roel, Bonket, Cruncher, Zanmato, Cheziie and others?
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fierd_1
USER: 5UPA
Rampage
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 20:29 Post subject: |
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| p-a-w-e-l wrote: | | So avoiding " random obstacles " is hard, but ok. |
Obviously, but you do your best to avoid it (as well as you can). There are plenty of maps out there which are brilliant and contain little to no random obstacles. Take a look at slaughter, the fall about 2/3 way through the map. It takes between 28-31 HP, different for each player - but that doesn't hinder the map because at no point do you ever have 28-31 HP, you either have 32 < x < 20 HP from lava damage.
| Lightning wrote: | Interesting discussion. I always wondered what was the luck element of scroll[bounce]jumping. So from reading your comments Supa I derived this:
If VSync = OFF then its impossible to do a bounce jump. But if VSync is ON it is possible but pseudo-random based on the on the games tickrate? Is that correct?
I remember a while ago here on LavaFactory there were players who developed the bounce to give consistency (SlideJump map is another example), how did they achieve this? Does increasing the Tickrate make a difference or was it just a better mouse wheel? At best I could managed about 3 consecutive bounces then it would return to a normal jump I know there are probably loads of variables to answer but there must have been one or two notable things these players did to achieve a regular bounce... |
There are a few things that affect the bouncing capabilities of players. Everyone should be able to bounce with walk, no problems at all there. But when it comes to regular non-walk bounces it gets more tricky. Server tickrate definitely does have an effect on it. A higher tickrate refreshes the server (i.e, sends & receives packets of information) more often, and therefore gives you more chance to hit that frame which you bounce on - plus if your VSync is off, your game also refreshes faster.
It is to my knowledge that with SwapInterval (read: VSync) on, that it's impossible (or very very hard) to bounce normally > 2 times. There may also be a renderer thing that plays into it. My full walkless bouncing works specifically on Direct3D9/10/11 with no frame cap and SwapInterval on 0. I haven't really tried with OGL. The problem being that D3D9 (for me), especially with SwapInterval disabled, basically makes my mouse feel as if it has some sort of smoothing mixed with acceleration, which makes dodging straight, aiming, basically everything super retarded. So if I want to do a bounce map, I have to sacrifice the ability to aim and dodge to be able to non-stop bounce.
Yep LavaFactory was one of those maps, Mouse Wheel shouldn't make *too* much of a difference, I mean if you have the timing down it's going to work regardless - people bounced with spacebar in the past, so mousewheel shouldn't affect it. It's purely your rendering settings mixed with server settings. Although any server with TR > 35 should be no problems ever with bouncing and the settings above.
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I4g streaming idea - epic or shit?
